Panel Discussion – Romans 11, Grafting Process of Spiritual Israelites

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Short Summary
The panel discussion focused on Romans chapter 11, emphasizing the grafting process of spiritual Israelites and the distinction between natural (physical) Israel and spiritual Israel. The speakers explored key themes such as Israel’s partial rejection, the inclusion of Gentiles, the Abrahamic promise as the root of the olive tree imagery, and the future salvation and restoration of Israel. They also addressed humility, faith, and the significance of abiding in Christ, while reflecting on current events involving Israel and considering the balance between Christian nonviolence and the realities of conflict.

Long Summary
Detailed Summary of the Panel Discussion on Romans 11 and the Grafting Process of Spiritual Israelites

Context and Purpose of Discussion:
– The panel was tasked by the Toronto area Bible students to discuss Romans chapter 11, focusing on the “grafting process” of spiritual Israelites.
– The aim was to remind and warn believers to “trim our lamp” and be spiritually prepared for coming events.
– The discussion shifted from natural Israel (physical descendants) to spiritual Israel, incorporating both natural and spiritual elements.

Overview of Romans 11 Themes:
– The chapter can be divided into three main sections:
1. Verses 1-10: Israel’s rejection is not final.
2. Verses 11-24: The salvation of the Gentiles and dispensational proof of God’s plan.
3. Verses 25-36: All Israel will eventually be saved (key verse Romans 11:25).
– Emphasis on Jewish unbelief allowing Gentiles to enter the heavenly calling, with a caution not to be proud because anyone can be cut off.

Reading of Romans 11:17-28:
– Verses 17-22 describe the wild olive branches (Gentiles) grafted into the cultivated olive tree (Israel).
– Warning against boasting over the natural branches (Jews cut off due to unbelief).
– Verses 23-28 highlight God’s ability to graft natural branches back in if they do not continue in unbelief.
– Verse 25 reveals a “mystery” that partial blindness has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, followed by the salvation of all Israel.

Symbolism of the Olive Tree Imagery:
– The cultivated (domesticated) olive tree symbolizes Israel, favored and governed by the Law of Moses.
– The wild olive tree represents Gentiles, who lacked standing with God until grafted in by faith.
– The tree represents God’s supervision over Israel and the change in His plan allowing Gentiles into covenant relationship.
– Scriptures referenced:
Amos 3:1-2 (Israel’s unique standing and punishment for iniquity)
Galatians 3:13 (Christ redeemed from the curse of the law by hanging on a tree)
Genesis 5:2 (Male and female created)
– The root of the tree represents the Abrahamic promise, the foundation for all covenants and blessings (Romans 11:16-18).
– The trunk (shaft) is debated but most likely represents Jesus Christ, the mediator connecting the root and branches.
– The fatness (sap) is interpreted as the Holy Spirit, which nourishes the branches, enabling them to bear fruit (Romans 11:17, 23).

Branches and Grafting:
Domestic branches: Natural Israel who accepted Jesus (Jewish Christians) remain attached.
Cut-off branches: Natural Israel who rejected Jesus, cut off around AD 33 (crucifixion, resurrection, Pentecost).
Wild branches: Gentiles grafted in by faith starting from Pentecost and Cornelius’ conversion.
– Grafting is an individual process, not a group or organizational inclusion.
– Scripture highlighting this analogy:
Romans 7:1-4 (Analogy of marriage showing release from the law through Christ)
Galatians 3:24-25 (Law as a schoolmaster leading to Christ)
John 15:1-6 (Jesus as the true vine, branches must abide in Him to bear fruit; unfruitful branches are cut off and burned)

Humility and Warning Against Pride:
– Believers are warned not to boast against the natural branches (the Jews) or be proud of their grafted status.
– Pride is dangerous and leads to downfall; humility is essential as all blessings come from God.
– Scriptures referenced:
Romans 11:18-20 (Do not boast against the branches; stand by faith with fear)
Proverbs 16:18 (“Pride goeth before destruction…”)
1 Corinthians 1:26-28 (God chooses the lowly and foolish to shame the wise)
Habakkuk 2:4 (“The righteous shall live by his faith”)

God’s Goodness and Severity:
– God’s goodness is shown to grafted-in believers; severity is shown to those cut off for unbelief.
– Those who fall away after enlightenment cannot be renewed again to repentance (Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-27).
– The idea that “once saved, always saved” is refuted; standing must be maintained by continued faith.

Relation to Present Events and Israel’s Future:
– The discussion touched on current events (post-October 7, 2023) and the geopolitical situation involving Israel.
– The two-state solution’s rejection is seen as significant in God’s unfolding plan.
– Israel’s regathering to the land is viewed as a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 15:18-21).
– The blindness of Israel (to Jesus as Messiah) will be removed after the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-27).
– Zechariah 12 was cited to illustrate God’s support for Israel and the role of secular and faithful Jews in future events.
– The difference between spiritual Israel (heavenly, spiritual seed, church) and natural Israel (earthly, physical descendants) will be clear during the Millennium.
– Spiritual Israel includes both faithful Jews and Gentiles grafted in by faith.

Ethical and Practical Considerations:
– The panel addressed questions about violence and war involving fleshly Israel.
– Jesus is the Prince of Peace and never resorted to violence; followers are called not to fight.
– However, panelists recognized historical and modern instances where defense and war were necessary (e.g., Israel defending itself against Hamas).
– The conflict is viewed in light of God’s justice and plan, with an emphasis on love for enemies and preaching the gospel impartially.
– The tension between standing with Israel as God’s chosen nation and loving all peoples was acknowledged.

Additional Scriptural References Noted:
Genesis 15:18-21 (God’s covenant with Abraham concerning land)
Amos 3:1-2 (Israel’s unique relationship with God)
Romans 10:17 (Faith comes by hearing the word of God)
John 19:37 and Old Testament prophecy (Israel will look upon Him whom they pierced)
Ezekiel 36 (Future salvation of Israel)
Daniel 9 (Seventy weeks prophecy related to Jewish covenant)
Galatians 3:13 (Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law)
Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-27 (Warning about falling away after enlightenment)
Matthew 28 (Great Commission to make disciples of all nations)

Closing Thoughts:
– The discussion emphasized God’s plan unfolding through history involving natural and spiritual Israel.
– The grafting process represents God’s inclusion of Gentiles and faithful Jews into the spiritual Israel.
– Believers must remain humble, faithful, and vigilant, recognizing their standing is by grace and faith.
– The ultimate hope is the full salvation of Israel and the establishment of God’s kingdom of peace.

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Key Bible Verses Referenced:

Romans 11:17-28 — Grafting of wild olive branches into the cultivated olive tree.
Romans 11:25-27 — Mystery of Israel’s partial blindness and eventual salvation.
Genesis 15:18-21 — God’s covenant with Abraham about the land.
Amos 3:1-2 — Israel’s special knowledge and accountability before God.
Galatians 3:13 — Christ redeemed from the curse of the law.
Romans 7:1-4 — Analogy of marriage to show release from the law.
John 15:1-6 — Jesus as the true vine and the necessity of abiding in Him.
Proverbs 16:18 — Pride precedes destruction.
1 Corinthians 1:26-28 — God’s choice of the humble and weak.
Habakkuk 2:4 — The righteous live by faith.
Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-27 — Warning against falling away.
Zechariah 12:3-10 — God’s future protection and blessing on Israel.
Matthew 28:19-20 — The Great Commission to all nations.

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This summary synthesizes the main points, scriptural references, and practical implications discussed in the panel session on Romans 11, focusing on the grafting process of spiritual Israelites and related theological and current event considerations.

Transcript

Please let the panel of discussion. Barrick thank you, Brother Michael. The Toronto area Bible students have given the panel members the instructions that in considering this Romans 11th chapter, the particular element is to discuss the grafting process of spiritual Israelites, which is intended to remind ourselves, warn ourselves about trim, how to trim our lamp and be ready for what is coming. So with that those instructions, we focused on the grafting process and that’ll be the main focus of our comments. We’ve kind of turned from discussing just natural Israel or the natural seed now to more of a focus on spiritual Israel.

A spiritual seed, but it does include natural Israel. So with that, in Romans 11, we’re going to read some verses, but we’re not going to read the whole chapter for this question, and so my question is what are some of the larger themes or concepts in this chapter? What are some of the larger themes or concepts in Romans the 11th chapter?

And there’s only two of you, so I’ll call on one of you first.

All right. Brother Bill Well, I’d like to start out, Brother Rick, with kind of a, a preamble or a pre ramble if I can, because of some of the, the comments and the discussion that we had with some of the questions. So the subject that the Toronto brethren picked is timely, I think, for the following questions that we will be discussing and timely for what presently is happening in Israel and timely for the sentiments of those who oppose Israel and what Israel and the US are doing to Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, Iran, etc. We could say that the world is being reshaped, and I think since October 7, 2023, we could say that things are being more to more into the light as to what is right and what is wrong.

That’s kind of the date I put on that, and I think one important point, you know, this is a little off the subject, but I think it’s on the subject though also one important point would be Jimmy Carter’s presidency, which we talked about before and we talked about the dissolving of the, well, his accomplishments and the dissolving of the Department of Education, and you know, I just like to read the scripture in Genesis 5:2, which says male and female created he them. So, you know, with that Department of Education, that’s where things were coming down into the Departments of Education of each state, and then we talked about the Panama Canal a little bit there.

But then our third point really is what we’re talking about here is the two state solution was not accepted and we can be really thankful about that, and so, you know, back to your question about Romans 11, I think it’s broken up into really three sections. Verse 1:1 I think is important. You could kind of read that by itself. But really, Romans 11:1 through 10, Israel’s rejection is not final.

I think that’s a good, you know, header for that one, and then we got the dispensational proof. They’ll sell that the salvation of the gentiles for verses 11 through 24, and then we have 25 through 36, which is all Israel will be saved, which really, that’s our key scripture we use today, verse 25.

All right, thank you. Or, Jim, briefly, I could summarize. The chapter I think is because of Jewish unbelief in Christ that it gives the Gentiles an opportunity to enter the heavenly calling. But don’t be proud because you too can be bounced.

All right, thank you. Appreciate that. Yes. All right, let’s read. In Romans 11, let’s read verses 17 to 28.

Brother Jim, could you read verses? Oh, let’s say 17 to 22 and then. Brother Bill, 23, 28.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, was grafted in among them, and it’s become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree, glory not over the branches, but if thou glorious, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. Thou won’t say, then branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well, by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear.

For if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.

Okay, and then 23 through 28. Well, brother, brother Bill, start with 22, please. Oh, sure. Behold then, the goodness and severity of God toward them that fell severity, but toward thee God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness, otherwise thou shalt thou also shall be cut off.

And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again. For if thou was cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and was grafted contrary to nature, into a good olive tree, how much more shall these which are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25. For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery.

Least you should be wise of your own conceits, that hardness in part hath befallen Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel shall be saved as written. There shall come out of Zion the deliverer. He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob, and this is my covenant unto them unto when I shall take away their sins.

As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as touching the election, they are beloved for the Father’s sake. Okay, thank you. So we want to discuss a little bit now about the imagery of the tree and what it might symbolize. So our first question is why a cultivated domesticated olive tree?

And perhaps a few comments on the difference between these domesticated olive trees and ones that are wild olive trees. So, Brother Jim, let’s start with you on this one, okay? I think that it’s talking about a domesticated olive tree that is domesticated by the law, the law of Moses, and as for a one is one of several distinctions between the wild olive trees and the domestic olive tree might be the history in the Hindu religion of the Trimuri of three gods, all equal, all equally necessary. The Creator, the preserver, and the destroyer.

Well, we know who the destroyer is, do we not?

We just think that he’s not only unnecessary, he’s going to be bound for a thousand years and then destroyed.

And from the Trimurthy, we have Jupiter. I think that probably derives from Japheth and also from Jupiter, the Gothic form of photon, that they had something at the beginning that was badly corrupted, and that’s one of the things that the wild olive tree has that we want to reject, that we want to get rid of our own cultures, to accept the culture of spiritual Israel.

Okay, thank you, Brother Jim. But a bill. Yeah, just to go along with brother Jim’s thoughts. You know, Israel always had a standing, and that was Jim’s point on the domesticated by the law.

So, you know, I would use the scripture in Amos 3:1 and 2.

Let’s just read that. Amos 3:1. Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O people of Israel, against the whole thing. Family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt, you only have I known of all the families of the earth. Therefore will I punish you for all your iniquities.

So, you know, the domesticated, I think shows that they were favored. You know, God’s God favored them from the beginning, and then the non domesticated or wild would represent those that have not had a standing, and that would be the Gentiles, and then in the Gentiles case, you know, we would use the scripture in Romans 10, verse 17. So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

So anyway, that. That would be my comment. All right, good. Thank you. I’ll just add in a similar fashion that as this tree started out representing the nation of Israel, it shows God’s supervision that he is dealing with this singular tree, as it were.

And so when these branches are cut off, it shows that there’s a change in the program. Well, that’s the change of God’s plans. So then the wild branches being grafted in seem to demonstrate that the Gentiles, who had not been in a relationship with God are now invited into a supervised covenanted relationship with God. So that the. The picture of the tree adjusts, but the similarity is that the Lord continues in his supervision.

Okay, one more point. One more point, Brother Rick. You know, when you look at the, when you look at the chart and there’s a plane P, you know, there’s a cross on that plane which shows, you know, Israel. That’s, that’s where Israel was. They were above plane R because they had a standing with God.

And then you have the cross, cross on plain N also. So, you know, and, and the scripture talks about in, in Galatians 3:13, Christ redeemed them from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, curses everyone who hangs on a tree. So the Jews had a double condemnation because they were favored of God. So I think that’s another important point.

And it show, and it depicts that right on our chart that we use.

Very good. Well, since you introduced that which, which we appreciate, just shows and emphasizes like, like this Romans 11, chapter that even though God used Israel under the old law covenant, knowing they couldn’t keep it and would fail, he didn’t intend for them to fail forever. He was to give them a chance in the future, and that would be under the new law covenant arrangement. So he did have Jesus hung on a tree to take their place, as it were, for the sins that they committed in violation of the favor that they had had.

So it shows the mercy of God in providing for them in that even the way in which he had Jesus die. So thank you.

The next question we thought, what does the root represent of this tree? What does the root represent? And well, Brother Bill, you can start, please. All right. Well, I think it’s.

It’s kind of simple. The root is the Abrahamic promise. I think everything goes back to the Abrahamic promise, and the root is explained for us in verse 16, 17, and 18. All three of those verses there talk about the root.

But it’s, it’s the, you know, it’s the Abrahamic promise. That’s, that’s, it’s, to me, it’s just a kind of a simple answer. Everything, everything goes back to the Abraham, all the covenants, everything goes back to the Abrahamic promise. Indeed. Okay, thank you.

It encompasses all the families, and one way or the other, Brother Jim, on this, about the root, I just think that it represents Jesus.

Okay. That’s very close, of course, to saying the promise.

It’s close. There’s different, but it’s close.

Okay, and so we’re going to develop that a little bit more in the next symbol, I think. So it’ll be nice to tie them in. I’ll just say in my, my reflection on this. The root of promise first germinates the natural tree because the fig tree represents natural Israel.

And some of the branches are removed when they don’t accept Jesus, and Gentiles who do accept Jesus are invited in. So that implies that this tree had a growth from a previous root, and that goes back to that, I think the Abrahamic promise that both seeds would, would be involved in God’s plan. But does that generate a comment from either of you?

Okay, well, I think, I think, you know, when you just naturally, when you put a seed in the ground out of one side of it, you know, if you dig it up pretty quick after it starts germinating, you see the root and then there’s a stock that comes out of the top of it. So the stock isn’t the root and the root isn’t the stock. It’s two different things. Yes, but they grow out of one seed. Yes, and that was our next question here for the brethren.

The shaft or trunk, and we say this is implied because we go to the branches, but the branches have to attach to a trunk. They don’t attach the root, only indirectly. So what does the trunk or the shaft of this tree represent? So Brother Jim, to you first.

I’ll start out with what I think it doesn’t represent. It doesn’t represent an organization. True, and I can, I can follow up on that. I think that the trunk, in my mind, I mean, it doesn’t say it.

This is an interesting question, but I think that trunk is Jesus. That’s what I, my, my thinking is on that. So the root is the Abrahamic, you know, promise, the, the, the all encompassing, where all the nourishment comes from, and then the branches are grafted in and out of our Lord, I think, recognizing who he is. So the nation, you know, was rejected because they didn’t accept Jesus.

So those branches were cut off. But we’re going to get into more there. There was some that, you know, accepted. So then they, they get to be. They get to stay on or they get to be grafted in later.

Yeah. All right, good. Thank you. Brother Jim, comments about this shaft. I know it’s not an organization.

We all agree with that. Have some other thought on it. I have no problem really thinking that it too represents Jesus. Okay. All right, good.

I guess that’s the angle that I prefer is the root was the Abrahamic promise. It, it did bear for Israel a certain part, and here’s an interesting angle in the sixth volume, page 177, sixth volume 177. Father Russell suggests that this, this trunk is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the patriarchs to the nation, which in one hand, the logic of that is, is that the natural seed was developed first and when they didn’t accept Messiah, those branches were cut off. So there’s a logic there.

On the other hand, there’s another picture is brought out. This is from reprint 5963. Reprint 5963. That the shaft or trunk is Jesus. Brother Bill had said, and you concurred, Brother Jim, is a possibility.

So I think it’s almost in my mind the Abrahamic promise with its two seeds that the natural was developed first and then latter, the spiritual seed of faith was more greatly developed. It depends on what focus you’re trying to give on the time of, of application of interpretation. Because certainly the nation of Israel came from the Abrahamic promise through their patriarchs. But when Jesus came, branches were cut off, Gentiles grafted in, and then on the other hand, though, to be joined as a branch, you’re going to be wanted to be joined to Jesus.

So we see the logic of that. It’s not unlike John 15 with the vine and you are the branches. So I think there’s a way, a logical way to harmoniously see the two. Does that generate any comment, follow up? No problem.

Okay, we’ll leave it there. Then we ask about what the Fatness verse 17, King James, the fatness partaketh with them of the fatness of the root and fatness of the olive tree. What does the fatness, or we might say the SAP represent? Brother Bill?

Yeah, this is an interesting question or something to ponder a little bit, you know, because in the natural, you know, I’ve never grafted anything, although I do have an apple tree in my backyard that has three different kind of apples on it. So that was I’ll grafted in, but I’ve never done this. But the point is, is, you know, when you go trim a tree, you trim the branch off and you throw it away, and here we are. Let’s talk about this one more time.

You know, this has to do with Israel’s rejection the 1845 years. I mean we’re now we’re talking about a real miracle here, a real miracle. This branch was cut off and, and it’s going to be grafted in again 1845 years later. I mean, you know, it’s not like a week later, it’s laying on the ground or a couple days or whatever. We’re talking about a long period of time.

And so I think it’s interesting that that branch still has the fatness in it, and I think that’s the idea. It still has life. It’s not all dried up and no good anymore and just good for firewood. Okay, thank you, Brother Bill.

Brother Jim. I tend to think of the SAP as the Holy Spirit.

I have to say so do I. I when I look at verse 23, Romans 11:23 and they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in. Again, I think of that as Jews who later accepted Jesus even though the nation had rejected him at the first advent and was cut off, because in the sense that I think the fig tree here develops into primarily representing the spiritual Israel and the development of the seed of promise as representing the Christ. So the branches that are cut off where the Jews of faith who, sorry, the Jews who lacked faith at the first advent were separated. The wild branches grafted in were gentile Christians. That’s the wild part that become into Christ and they are spirit begotten.

So then it goes on in that verse 23 to say if some of the natural seed, the Jews who as a nation have been cut off because of unbelief, if some in their life accept Christ and are spirit begotten, they partake of the SAP and are part of that tree. So I guess I would take it from that angle. But further comments?

Well, we do know there’s Jewish Bible students and they’re a good example of those who of the natural seed by descendants had been separated. But because they accepted the truth and consecrated they’re they’re good examples we have of of Jews who did come into this tree. Okay, anything else on that? Let’s move into the Next one.

Well, I think we’ve already said it. The domestic branches. Did either of you have more on this?

Okay, the ones that were cut off, I think they’d qualify as fleshly Israel.

And if I were to pick a date that they were cut off, I might choose A.D. 33, April 3rd or 5th, or May 24th. That would be the days of crucifixion, Jesus resurrection, or Pentecost.

All right, very good, and I. Thanks for blending it down a little bit. That’s good, Brother Bill, on any of that, as it were. Yeah, I just think the other point would be that, you know, they’re scattered throughout the world, so, you know, they’re.

They’re. They’ll be coming back, but that’s. I think that’s know. AD 70. AD 73, when Masada is finally overthrown in Jerusalem.

So. Okay, no, very good, very good, and so those branches that were not cut off, the domestic branches that were not cut off, what do that. What does that represent? Once again, Brother Bill, Those that ex.

Those that accepted. Okay. Jewish Christians. Jewish Christians. Very good.

Okay, and I. I like the analogy here, Brother Rick, if I can read Romans 7:1:5. Yeah. So this is the analogy of marriage. I think this is an important scripture to keep before our minds.

It says, do. Do you not know, brothers and sisters? For I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law is binding on a person only during that person’s lifetime. Thus, a married woman is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law concerning the husband.

Accordingly, she’ll be called an adulteress if she lives without with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from the law, and if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress, and then verse 4. In the same way, my friends, you have died to the law through the body of Christ so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

So I think there’s a number of points in here. But. But I think the point that kind of is pinned on what we’re talking about is that the Jew that accepted Jesus is no longer under the law. That’s the real point, and then I think there’s another point here for the Jew that did not accept Jesus, he is still under the law.

Very good. Certainly concur with that. Thank you.

Brother Jim, did you have anything to add that? Romans 7. I know it’s a little off to the side there, but related. I think Bill covered that pretty well. Okay, so then back in our Romans 11 picture, when might we think do we have a date for starting the grafting in of the wild branches?

When that process started.

Brother Jim, you have thought That’s I think AD 33am I may 24th on Pentecost for the wild branches to be grafted in. Oh, I’m sorry, no, that’s. That starts with Cornelius. I think some started with the Ethiopian eunuch, but I think he was already a Jew. Ethiopian Jewish.

Good. That sounds reasonable. Thank you brother Bill on that at all. No, you know, and just another scripture, Galatians 3, 24 and 25. Wherefore the law was a school master to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith has come, we are no longer under a school master or under that law. You know. So I think that goes along with that Roman scripture and then brother Jim’s comments. Okay, all right, good. I like the thought of from Daniel the ninth chapter that the 70 weeks of years was a covenant.

In fact it says so for the people of Daniel, the Jewish people, and once it was concluded in 36 AD that that’s when Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit. So I would start that as the beginning of the wild branches crafted in. So let’s look at this last point about the tree. Let’s put the whole owl of tree picture together.

We’ve talked about the various aspects of it. Let’s put it all together. Brother Jim, you like to start that. Well, just that the Jews were in God’s favor until they reached the point of disfavor, and because they as a nation were put out of the high calling that gentiles were invited in.

Now there were some of the Jews that right away took at. We have 12 apostles and they were all Jews. So it’s not that a hundred percent of them were cut out but among gentiles some have been grafted in and have also had to be taken out. So some Jews have been regret they’re regrafted back in. I’ll just mention one interesting case is Joseph Wolf.

He was a better known Adventist worldwide than William Miller was. He was a European Jew who preached the imminent return of Christ a little bit after 1844 and with a return of Israel back to the land, and he preached on four continents and thanks to former president.

Oh, the former president of the U. S I think he was the sixth or seventh. Sixth president. He got him an invitation to speak to the US Congress with his message.

Well, you did pretty good to remember the sixth president, but not the name. I appreciate President Q. John Quincy Adams. There we go. How nice. Thank you.

Didn’t know that. I appreciate knowing that. Thank you. Brother Bill, on this question, putting the whole tree together. Yeah, putting the whole tree picture together.

You know, Israel’s rejection is not final. Israel as a nation was cut off. Remember, the comment is as a nation, and then the Gentiles were grafted in, and those are individuals that get grafted in.

You know, the call went out for individuals, not as a group. I think, like Brother Jim started us off with, you know, it’s not an organization. So I think that’s an important point that needs to be understood during the gospel age, and then once the church is complete, the Jews will recognize who their Messiah is, and in the meantime, as we see today, this is the big picture here.

The Jews are being regathered to the land God gave Abraham, the land of Israel. So I think that’s where we are today. What we’re seeing happening. That’s the focus of, of what’s going on, and, you know, and then when we talk about the land, that’s, that’s, I guess that’s the next point.

Maybe, you know, we talk about a covenant, and I think it’s, it’s in, you know, you mentioned this in your, your first talk, Brother Rick, at the beginning there. The land God gave Abraham is in Genesis 15:18 through 21. We don’t have to read all that, but let me read the first couple words. It says, on that day the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, saying, so the point is, when God makes a covenant, that’s something you can take to the bank.

I mean, it’s a sure thing as long as you understand what that covenant is. But the covenant was with Abraham, and that’s the land he’s going to give them, and so that’s what’s happening today, being regathered to their land, and then, well, you know, then, then we have the scripture that I think is one of my favorite, you know, Romans 11:25. For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery.

Least you should be wise in your own conceits. That blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and so the question is, what is that blindness? It’s blind to Jesus. That’s really the point of the whole thing.

And once that blindness is taken away, then they will accept, and of Course then the resurrection the world and everybody will be blessed through that idea of Abraham as it says in 26 and 27, and so all Israel will be saved as is written. They will come out of Zion the deliverer and turn ungodliness away from Jacob or Israel. For this is my covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.

All right, thank you. Very very good. Comprehensive for all.

The way I like to put it in my mind and I’ll express here is that this tree starts out with this root is the Abrahamic promise that God gave, and we knew that there were two seeds that are mentioned, and we learned that the first one that was blessed was the natural seed, and just like Ishmael was born before Isaac. But it wasn’t the intended seed of promise.

They could have been the nation of Israel could have except when Jesus came at the first advent and they rejected him as a nation. They forever lost that opportunity as a nation to fulfill the the promises along the spiritual line to be the greater seed of promise. However, that way opened up for Gentiles then to be grafted into the Christ seed and Jews individually, even though nationally had been cut off. Individual Jews at any time throughout the gospel age could believe in Jesus and consecrate and be grafted back into this tree. So that to my mind the tree morphs.

There’s a common theme of God’s supervision and covenant based on the Abrahamic promises. But there are several covenants, two in particular to develop the two seeds. The law covenant given first to develop the natural seed to the point that that when the opportunity came when Christ opened the door to a living and new faith and the high calling that then the the Abrahamic seed of faith would be primarily developed through Jesus Christ and being part of the 144,000 those who were called to be that spiritual Israel, and once that tree is then complete made up of spiritual all spiritual Israelites. But some became were of the natural seed Jews and some were of Gentiles that together they will then restore blessings to the house of of Israel.

They will. That that fulfilled tree I think is the same as verse 26. The deliverer that shall come out of Zion and shall turn ungodliness away from Jacob. So Jacob will have their their. Their blessings of an earthly sort under the new law covenant arrangement in the kingdom.

And they too will then have a role in being a a blesser to the other other nations. So I’ll. I’ll leave it there on at that. Does that elicit any other comments before we move on. Just one more, Brother Rick, that, you know, it, it was all in God’s plan.

He knew Israel as a nation would never, I mean, you know, if they would have accepted, Jesus would have never died. You know, I mean, that would have. They would have accepted you. So he knew this, this is all part of the plan. It’s not like they, they all of a sudden, you know, reject.

He knew this was all going to happen in advance and this whole plan is working out for everybody’s benefit. That’s true. Just like you knew Adam and Eve would sin, he provided a way to re. Have a redemption. It’s.

It’s true. Okay, then moving into this, I think Brother Jim. Jim has a comment. Okay, Brother Jim. If anyone should have any doubts as to whether they can be grafted in again, we’ve got the Langer sisters, Jackie Lamao, Shirley Evans and Gene Mora.

Yeah, to name a few. That’s good.

We wanted to ask a question. It’s in verse 20 and it’s to the new creature. Verse 20 reads well, because of unbelief, they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear.

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed, lest he also spared not thee. So in this verse 20, what’s the thought of what does stand as standeth by faith? What’s the emphasis there?

Go ahead, Jim. Okay. Hebrews. Excuse me. Habakkuk 2, verse 4.

It’s talking about the evil ones as at the beginning. Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

All right, very good, Brother Bill. Yeah, and I was going to say, you know, it’s faith not works. I think that’s the whole point here, you know. What is your faith then? I mean, you know, it’s.

It’s works are important, but what’s your faith? Indeed. Okay, very good, and then in verse 18, it says, boast not against the branches, but if you boast, you bear us not the root, but the root thee. What’s that verse mean to us?

Brother Bill, you want to start?

Well, you know, we’re grafted in and it’s the Abrahamic promise, the root. So we have nothing to glory about. We’re just, you know, nobody has anything to glory about, and I think that’s kind of, you know, what the whole understanding the plan of God is all about. There’s a protocol.

God is first, Jesus is second. You know, the church comes underneath that. The ancient worthies, Israel, the world of mankind. You know, there’s a. There’s a set way things are going to be.

And if you don’t come under that, if you don’t realize what position you have, and that’s really probably the most important thing in this verse here. If you don’t recognize your position, if you think you’re more than what you should be, then there’s a big problem.

Yes, an entitlement problem. All right, thank you, Brother Jim. Boast not against the branches, is really saying, don’t hate the Jews.

Yeah, I like that. I was thinking that similar to what Brother Bill had brought on in his earlier lesson, that don’t accept the false doctrine of replacement theology, that somehow the Christian church has replaced Israel to the extent that Israel has no future favor with God, and that’s an important element, then we. I ask again here in verse 20, be not high minded, but fear. Maybe we’re kind of going over the same material, but do you have any thoughts on that? Be not high minded, but fear in verse 20 about it?

Jim? First Corinthians, chapter 1, verses 26 to 28 is the first thing that comes to my mind, and I’ll go ahead and read that. For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called. But God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame them that are wise.

And God chose the weak things of the world that he might put to shame the things that are strong and the base things of the world and the things that are despised. Did God choose. Yea, and the things that are not, that he might bring to naught the things that are, and that puts me in my place, doesn’t it, for us all. Thank you.

Good verse, Brother Bill. Yeah, and then, and I’m using the new revised standard version, it says, so do not become proud, but stand in awe, and I think, you know, as.

As we traverse our days, we should really be thankful of the standing that we have because we are guided and God is guiding us where the rest of the world is just out there, you know, as one could say in the breeze. You know, we have God’s care and guidance for our lives and we. We should take that to heart when things happen to us and in our daily walk and then be thankful for the, The. The knowledge that we have God opening up his plan, plan ahead of the world of mankind, you know, just for us to understand and to see these things indeed, so true. There’s a.

There seems to be a lack of fear or of Reverence in today’s world, probably more so than perhaps any other time during this gospel age, and the proper fear. It’s a legitimate fear that we don’t want to disappoint God. But it’s reverence by understanding that he’s our Father, and we appreciate that he wants each of us to succeed in making our calling and election.

Sure, indeed. But yet we have to also remember that the requirements are lofty. To be an image of his Son in thought, word and deed. But if there’s ever any pride that’s entering in, then that is certainly a death knell to the health of the new creature.

Now we have in verse 21. I’m going to read that verse 21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed, lest he also spare not thee. Behold, therefore, the goodness and severity of God on them which fell severity, but toward you goodness, if you continue in his goodness. Otherwise thou shalt also be cut off.

Now, what’s the thought here of these two verses, Brother Jim? I’d start with Hebrews 6, 4, 6. For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame, and also we have Hebrews 10, 26 and 7.

So those are good verses. Could you just elaborate on it a little bit for us, please? I would say that if one enters the consecrated way and then tries to turn back, that’s the end.

What’s the end? What. What end is it? Second death, non existence. Okay.

Okay, thank you. Brother Bill, your thoughts? Yeah, mine’s a little bit on a brighter note, but the whole idea here, you know, it does away with the idea. Once saved, always saved, you know? I mean, for if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.

So just because you’ve consecrated and entered into the way doesn’t mean, you know, it’s a sure thing. Which, you know, Jim. Jim elaborated on that for us. Okay. No, that’s good.

So on this same. Same theme, let’s see. Brother Bill, could you read in John 15. John 15. Now, we’re going to read about this vine and its branches, but read for us if you will, verses one through six, one through six.

Sure. John 15. One, I am the true vine, and my Father is the Wine is the vine dresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit, he pruneth it.

That it may bear. That it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever, who. So whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit. For apart from me, you cannot do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me, he is thrown away like a branch and withers.

And the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. All right, so brother Bill comments on this. These verses. I think it. I think it, you know, shows you that Jesus really is the only way.

You know, that’s. That’s the bottom line. There’s no other way anybody can do anything. It’s only through Jesus, and the whole world is going to have to recognize that in the future.

And this, you know, we talked about blindness in part with Israel. They’re going to have to recognize it. They will look upon him whom they have pierced. We didn’t read that scripture, but that’s in John 19:37 or something like that, and then it’s in the Old Testament also.

So everybody’s going to have to come under that arrangement, and there is an arrangement that God has, and it’s a learning arrangement. It’s not just a helter skelter arrangement. It’s. It’s that, you know, Jesus is the, the.

He has the words of life. He is life, and if you’re not in that vine, if you’re cut off, then there’s no more life for you. Okay, very good. Thank you both.

I. I should enter a caveat to what I’ve said, and that is a humble and contrite heart. O Lord, wilt thou never despise that? If a person realizes he’s done something horrible after entering the consecrated way, if he has a contrite heart, he is not going into the second death for that. Right, Right. If there’s, if there’s.

Ever a repentance, that’s a good sign, no matter how terrible the sin, and I think that’s the picture with David with Bathsheba. You know, I think, you know, once it was pointed out, I think he did go against his conscience. But I think once, you know, the prophet Nathan pointed that out to him, and you know, and it’s clear in the scripture, because I read it, you know, you know, I will not destroy you. You know, God, I mean, he was, he was on the verge.

He did against what God’s will was, and God could have destroyed him at that point. But I think, you know, Brother Jim, your scripture, the contrite heart, he’s back in, and he did have to face the consequences, though. I think that’s the other point. Just because you have a con.

Contrite heart doesn’t mean you don’t. You get a pass on the consequences of your sin, and those consequences might follow you to your grave. Well, it can even follow beyond, because some of these sins, even repented of, might remove one from the little flock and place one in the great company, First Corinthians, the fifth chapter, that their spirit might be saved by in the day of the Lord. However, here in this John 15, we wanted to emphasize that this picture of this vine is not the nation of Israel like we’ve been talking about with our fig tree.

It’s specifically the new creation vine, and in the new creation vine, this is the emphasis of having revealed, be united to Christ, that if a branch is not bearing fruit, that means that branch had in a sense, broken itself, and the Lord the heavenly Father will then prune it off for not developing properly. But if the branch has not separated itself, the prunings will be received to generate greater fruit. But nonetheless, here it’s the same end result.

If you had been part of the Christ and were separated and received, then your lot is to be burned. That would show second death. Taking that back to Romans 11, it’s not saying that the nation of Israel went to second death. That’s not saying that. What it’s saying is once the picture in Romans 11 transferred from the nation of Israel to the development of the new creation, including individual Jews of faith and individual Gentiles, if then they are separated, that’s their lot would be.

We would be the second death. All right, what we see here in our last few moments, why is humility essential to our Christian character development? And that’s a general comment, but here in Romans 11, is there a specific application of humility that Paul is trying to refer to in context?

Brother Bill well, you know, Israel was what had had the promises from the beginning. You know, they were, they had a standing, always had a standing. So, you know, you know, as a nation, you know, you can look at it, and I think they became proud, you know, with God’s help all the time, and So I think there’s a humility that we have to have to keep ourselves so that we don’t think more of ourselves than we really ought to, and I think the other point is that we don’t ever really think we’re better than anybody else.

I put this in my talk, but I didn’t read part of it or I didn’t say part of it. But I’ve had the opportunity to be around some extremely wealthy people, and it seems to me that there is a thought in their mind. I’ve never been able to pin this down, but there’s a thought that they look at you as, you know, they’re no better than you sometimes because they just had the right. They were at the right place at the right time with the right credentials and.

And it’s easy for me to trade places with them and for them to trade places with me. It just so happened. The luck of the draw, as they say. They got there and others didn’t. So I think there’s a mortality.

I think there’s a realization that people. That some people have, that, you know, that they’re no better than anybody else. So I, I then, you know, that’s the whole idea with pride, is that we’re, you know, we’re not really any better.

That was Satan’s. What? Wasn’t that Satan’s big fault? He wanted to be like the most High. You know, he.

That was he. Pride. Pride cometh before a fall. It’s another scripture. So, yes, absolutely.

No, that’s good. Thank you, Brother Jim. Now, pick up on that with Proverbs 16. Start with the 18th verse. Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Better is it to be of a lowly spirit with the poor than to divide the spoil with the proud.

All right, that’s very good. So in the end, in conclusion, brethren, you’ve outlined it well. I thank you. The thought of having this mind in us, which was in Christ Jesus, even this great humility, that we have nothing of our own selves. If we are found worthy to be of that bride class, every single member, we can rest assured, will feel that was a miracle and only by grace.

And we’ll give all glory to God, as some of the spiritual songs will say we’ve loved. If we live 10,000 years, we’ll still just be giving glory to God and thankfulness for what he has done. Brother Michael, we turn this meeting back over to you.

Thank you, Brother Rick, Brother Bill and Brother Jim really appreciate the discussion. Very definitely. We all need to stand or watch so that we don’t fall and this, the scriptures basically bring that out for us. So thank you for your exposition. Thank you for the scriptures.

Thank you for your service as well. We’ll take a five minute break. We actually want to continue with questioning, but we just want to make sure that Bren can, you know, if there’s a bio break or you know, stretch your legs, then we’ll come back in 4:20. Can we come back at 4:20 and then continue with the questions? So we’ll just take a pause for a moment and then we’ll come back.

Okay, great, and brethren, if you want to. Yeah, I’ll say let’s not turn on our videos and unmute ourselves just yet, but just take a quick break and come back at 4:20. Thank you.

Well, thanks Brother Rick for organizing the panel question, and then we’ll let the person direct the question that you can redirect as necessary. So we have right now. Please go ahead.

Thank you dear brother. Thank you. Thank you brethren. A very interesting topic, this matter of fleshly Israel, and you know what, I just want to go back to a brother earlier who brought up the subject of genocide and whether we acquiesce to what’s going on when fleshly Israel is actively involved in promoting violence.

Whether you like it or not, it’s violence. I appreciate that brother, bringing that up because it has a lot to do with what my thoughts are from scripture on this, and Paul said, who is a true Israelite, not circumcised in the flesh, but in the heart. So he laid the groundwork of what should be an Israelite. So listening to the brothers and I appreciate them wanting to bring out what’s on their heart had me summarizing that we’re pretty good at explaining war strategies, including weaponry as Bible students.

And you know why I’m saying this is Jesus, as we know, never resorted to any violence. That’s what he stands for. He’s the Prince of peace. So the question could be, do we bend the rules for fleshly Israel?

Another point made was they are to be a blesser to all nations. Well that’s interesting. Matthew 11 onwards talks about others like the Queen of the South, Nineveh, Tyre, Dynam, who’ll be on a higher level than Israel. So we have to include them as being part of that blesser nation, if there is one. The gospel message in Matthew 28 to me at least reads, you got to get it right with God through Jesus.

And that message is for all nations, including Israel. So I appreciate that, brother, bringing up this point, and so the question is 2. Are we to align ourselves with any nation that promotes God’s kingdom through bloodshed when we are told as followers of Jesus, that we are no part of the world? Which is of course why we don’t fight.

We even teach our children to come to the CEO meetings to write up why they are Christian, why they will not get involved in bloodshed. Oh, you can’t have both sides of a coin, brothers, and should we not be doing as our master said, that is, go and make disciples throughout the whole world, including Israel?

How do you talk to a Palestinian when you are openly on side with this fleshly nation? How do you preach the gospel to other people?

Interestingly, there are some though brothers who are going there, and I know of them personally, who are teaching the gospel of Christ, and I believe even our elders should know this. We are taught to love our enemies, and that means even fleshly Israel, and Paul speaks to the point very clearly in Thessalonians that they are against all interests of men. They have to be brought up to speed.

And they will be. No one is saying that they will perish indefinitely. That’s not what Paul is saying. We have to agree that God is merciful and he’ll give them every opportunity to come to life. Through what?

Through Christ. I have to. I have to share these thoughts, and you know, you asked earlier, Brother Jim, whether there’s another interpretation or Ezekiel 38. Maybe I misunderstood you, but Peter speaks in very cryptic language concerning the prophets.

Or I should say rather Peter says that the prophets speak in cryptic ways that are intended for us to understand through Holy Spirit. Now, when we talk about Gog coming against the nation of Israel, and I’m going to conclude pretty soon, when we talk about God coming against the nation of Israel, it says there he’ll come against those dwelling in secure. Wait a minute. Security. Dwelling without wall.

They don’t have bar or doors. It will be to get a big spoil. You know, ever since a young man, I remember hearing through discourses that Israel is now building a wall between the Palestinians and themselves. They are armed to the teeth. But this scripture is talking about those who have no physical protection.

And who would that be? That would be the people of God in Christ. They are relying on God’s power to save them, not man. So this Gog is obviously in the form of Satan, who is against the interest of spiritual Israel. He, the devil knows that he has a short time.

And when spiritual Israel is gathered. That’s it. That’s it for him. So it. Even that scripture there says one more thing.

It says a people that are gathered out of the nations, accumulating wealth and property, property who are dwelling in the center of the earth. Now, that might have been true of Israel at one time, of course, but now God has his focal point, his eye, as. As it were, on spiritual Israel, and who is against spiritual Israel the most? Naturally, it would be the devil.

We have to give these things some deeper consideration. Brothers, I believe these words aren’t meant to be just read literally, and I think the brothers understand this. So I’m going to leave it with you, dear brother. Thank you. I’m sorry, just.

Brethren, in the interest of time and in order to give others the opportunity, can we please be concise with our comments and our questions? Okay, But, Rick, did you want to take up Joe’s comments? Questions? Certainly. So, of course, we’re looking at the three panelists.

And so Brother Bill or Brother Jim, would you like to comment first? Brother Jim, the church is under a higher covenant than Israel and the world have been or will be, and therefore what’s told to us is that we are not to be violent. However, when the iniquity of the Amorites was full, God sent the Lord’s people into the land to drive the Amorites out of the land, and in modern times, there’s a fellow who was the son of a Hamas founder, and they call him Son of Hamas.

And he says the Hamas is determined to exterminate every Jew in the world. As you can’t live with that, it’s either you or them, and he says Israel has no choice but to get rid of Hamas entirely, and I think that’s true. If two sides and one is determined to destroy the other, then the other has to physically fight back without the Lord being unhappy about it.

And again, the Lord’s people are told, I will plant them again in their land, and they shall be no more plucked up out of their land, which I have given them, saith Jehovah. Jehovah, and I think, therefore, we shouldn’t be on the other side.

All right, thank you, Brother Jim. Brother Bill, be sure to unmute. Unmute.

Thank you. You know, just shortly, I. I despise war. I despise killing. I despise all of that. But there is a right and there is a wrong, and you better be on the right side.

And you know, Israel as the nation that we read through the scriptures, that’s the side we want to be on. So that’s the earthly, the kingdom. You know how it all comes about. It’s. It’s war is not, is not a pretty picture.

Armageddon is not going to be a pretty picture. So I’ll, I’ll leave it at that. Okay, thank you. So I’m going to take us to Zechariah, the 12th chapter, Zechariah 12. This is in response to the comments from Brother Joe.

I think we have a picture for today and it started in 1878 and has moved on. But I think that it’s showing us that in verse three, in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people. All that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. In that day, saith the Lord, I’ll smite every horse with astonishment, his rider with madness, and I will open my eyes upon thy the house of Judah and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Just. I think this began in 1878 and onward. I believe the Lord is saying he’s standing up for natural Israel. Their disfavor had ended. He’s regathering them back to their land with Jerusalem as a headquarters.

We remember that Satan the adversary wants to destroy both seeds, the spiritual seed and the earthly seed. He’s read the prophecies. He knows Jerusalem is going to be the capital of the earth and the peaceable kingdom. So he needs to stop that. The horses here are the false doctrines that have been anti Zionist and anti Jewish.

The writers are those who promote those things. The Marxists, the Ku Klux Klan, the John Birch Society, and the Lord smites their those doctrines with madness. In other words, they are ineffective in stopping the Jews being regathered in their homeland. Verse 5.

And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God. So the governors of Judah, I’ll suggest to you, the governors are leaders that Judah here is representing the secular Jews. Secular Zionists, and how at first the Lord blessed the secular Zionist efforts to re establish the land. The religious Zionists came later.

And even at that the secular Jews had some belief that the God of the inhabitants of Jerusalem would end up being their strength. Now the inhabitants of Jerusalem I think are Jews of faith. Inhabitants shows those who are making a commitment to the land. Verse 6. In that day will I make the governors of Judah.

Like a hearth of fire among the wood, like a torch of fire in a sheaf, and they shall devour all the people round about on the right hand and on the left, and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem, and I think this is demonstrating that the secular Jews are those that the Lord first used to smite the Arabs and reunite the city of Jerusalem in 1967. The Lord blessed their efforts even though they weren’t the Jews of faith. Secular Jews.

Verse 7. The Lord also shall give victory to the tents of Judah first. Yes, the secular Jews have been used by God and still are being used. The Lord God isn’t just relying on the Jews of faith in order to keep the land established now, because he knows they have to act as warriors. So he includes even the secular Jew.

But in verse seven, it goes on to say that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that they should not magnify themselves against Judah, and that is the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Those are the Jews who have true faith. That’s the holy remnant, and they won’t boast against the secular Jews because the secular Jews had been protecting them while they were being developed.

And God gave the the victory to the secular Jews first. That’s what we’ve been seeing. I think we’re still seeing that. Verse 8. In that day the Lord shall defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Jews of faith.

And that he that is feeble among them in that day shall be as David. That is feeble. Recognizing by their own power they can’t defeat their enemies, but only by the power of God, because these are Jews of faith, and the house of David shall be like a mighty one, as the messenger of the Lord before them. In other words, the Jews of faith, setting this example, trusting in God.

And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem, and I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication, and they shall behold him whom they have pierced and mourn for him as they mourn for their only son. So the governors of Judah don’t receive the spirit of grace because they didn’t have the proper faith. Maybe in the future.

But the Jews of faith are the ones who will receive this blessing of recognizing that Jesus was their Messiah first and in the right heart condition they shall repent. But I’m going to have to conclude here by just saying I believe this is teaching what we’re seeing today. The Lord is working with secular Judah, secular Jews, in order to protect and develop the Jews who have faith, who he will use to be the blesser, the nucleus of the blesser in the. In the peaceable kingdom. So as Christians, we abhor war, but we do recognize that there are times when, when war is necessary and God has it, has it as.

As unfolding in that plan of his. But we look forward to the day when there will be war no more. So I’ll have to leave that at that.

So I. I think that was the three of us. I’ll turn now to brother Tim for your question.

Oh, thanks, Brother Rick. Well, I would just like to add that the word Armageddon is battle between good and evil. So we’re going to get into that more and more as time progress expresses. But I was wondering, you said about the two seed, Ishmael and Isaac, and you said that the Ishmael hagar represents the old law of covenant, I think, and it’s just what I have written down.

And, and it was really. It belongs to that moon covenant is what I believe. It’s. It’s a reflection of the sun, and would that be.

Remember when our Lord was on the cross, that full moon began to wane, and you see that law covenant became null and void in a sense, with the, the tearing of the. The veil, and would that be the reason why it went so fast under our Lord, because of the moon covenant, which the moon has that gravity to pull the seeds out of the ground, and then when the.

The moon began to wane after our Lord’s death that it took so long to get the wild branches, the seed of the. The wild olive branches to grow, grow because of that darkness that came upon the earth, and then when, when our Lord returns the sun of righteousness S U N then the harvest picks up speed in a sense, and that’s why the gospel age took so long under the gentile rules. Do you have any thoughts on that?

I’m just putting in my own interpretation, which tonight might not be correct, but I like to see what your thoughts are on the two seats over. All right. Brother Bill, Brother Jim, you. You’ve heard Brother Tim’s question. Do you have some comments?

Could you repeat the question briefly, Brother Tim, a little more concise? Okay. Well, I’m. I’m not good with words, but the two seeds. One represented the Jewish nation in a sense, under the old law covenant.

And the moon represents the old law covenant, and when our Lord died, the moon began to wane because it was at full moon, and then that’s why the gospel age under the Gentiles, he went out to the highways and the byways. It took so long, so long for the gospel age, because that moon, that old law covenant never gave them the nourishment, for they were like they were able to go from Moses and the Red Sea directly into Christ, whereas as the Gentiles were wild branches drafted in. So I’m just wondering if.

If possibly that was the reason or that is the reason why it took so long to go out to the highways and byways for people for his name, because they didn’t have that orderly law covenant, and it was like they were basically, in a sense, in the wilderness condition, and I. I don’t know. It’s hard for me to explain it, but I don’t know if you can. Maybe Brother Rick can explain it better than me because I think backwards anyway, so I’m.

I’m having a hard time, but I can see the picture. I can see the picture of that old law covenant not having any significance. Like the Jews had the law. But you see, and yet these things were written for our admonition and it was for the church. So I’m wondering on these two seeds, like was brought up.

I think Brother Rick brought this up, the two seeds. One was the wild olive. Olive, and the other one was the. The tame olive.

And the tame olive produced more fruit or easier fruitage because of the old law covenant. I don’t know if you can see my, and my question, but you can try. If not, then, you know, maybe someday I can do it again in and write it down so I can. I can relay my question to you anyways.

You could. Well, it’s true. Writing something down helps all of us to organize our thoughts. That’s. That’s true, but.

Brother Jim or Brother Bill, any comments on this? Well, there are, I believe, two seeds, all right, the heavenly and the earthly. But it’s necessary that the heavenly be produced first, because if there’s to be a change in the covenant, there needs to be a change in the priesthood. So it takes 2,000 years to develop the priesthood and 1,000 to develop the earthly seed. Does that help to get things started?

Helps me. Brother Bill, anything further on this?

You’re muted.

Nothing further. Just the heavenly and the earthly. There’s two seeds, you know, that’s. That’s the two seeds. Okay, so.

All right, good. The. Well, the natural seed was developed first, but they. God knew they wouldn’t. But he offered them as a nation to become the more prominent seed, the spiritual seed.

But because the nation rejected that Opportunity at the first advent, then the opportunity was open to the Gentiles as well. So individual Jews and then individual Gentiles could be part of that greater promised spiritual seed. But the natural seed gets a blessing in the future and it’s of a lesser blessing, but they do have that, and so they get a new covenant with better sacrifices and the sacrifice of Jesus for the ransom and the church sharing the sin offering which then allows the ransom merit to flow to mankind, and so then they will have a better sacrifice, they’ll have a better mediator.

The Christ had embodied better than Moses. So they’ll be much more successful, and all the enemies will be destroyed or bound. Satan will be bound for that little throughout that thousand year period. That’s giving all the advantages for the natural seed then to be properly developed.

But they missed out on being the primary seed of intention.

I don’t know that we’re answering your question, brother Tim, but we’re going to have to move along. Food for thought at all? Well, no, I was thinking of like I realized, earthly and heavenly. But there’s still two seeds. There was the Jewish harvest and then there’s the Gentile harvest which we’re experiencing now.

So you see, the two Cs are still part of that heavenly class. But anyways, we’ll go on because we could go on forever here. So you go, I’ll work on it myself. Thank you. Thank you.

Alrighty. Brother Emmanuel, I hope you’re still there.

Come here from Nigeria. I have a question to ask pertaining to Israel, and my question may be simple and everyone may have the answer, but I will ask the question for clear clarification. We make mention of Ezekiel, chapter 36, which talk about the spiritual. Sorry, by Emmanuel.

By Emmanuel. Can you please speak louder? Just if you can’t, I think there’s a struggle to hear what you’re saying. Can please speak louder? Thank you.

All right, I say we have make mention of Ezekiel chapter 36 and even Romans, chapter 11 also talk about the future salvation of Israel. So my question is that is this talking about the physical Israel or the spiritual Israel? And my second question is what is the difference between the spiritual Israel and the physical Israel during the thousand years?

What’s the difference between spiritual Israel and natural Israel during the thousand years? Is that your question, brother? Yes. Okay, Brother Bill or brother Jim. One’s up and one’s down.

Spiritual Israel is in heaven and natural Israel is on earth, and the kingdom, you know, there’s two phases of the kingdom, like we pray in Matthew 6:10 thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven. So there’s the two phases of the kingdom and then they’re connected with the picture of Jacob’s ladder, you know, that’s how the kingdom will operate. There will be communication between the two.

Okay, very good. Appreciate that.

The law goes forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem, Isaiah 2. So it’s the two parts of the kingdom, spiritual Israel, of course, some being had been literal Jews by birth, but they accepted Christ and were faithful and others will be of the Gentiles.

But okay, Brother Drake, then the picture that the scripture that you quoted, brother Rick, Zion would be the heavenly and Jerusalem would be the earthly. Okay, thank you. Indeed. Thank you, Brother Drake. Okay, well on a previous point, I’ll just read Romans 11:25.

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree and were grafted, and this is new American Standard by the way, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall those who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? And that goes on in Romans 11:25 through 32, and I think it’s rather clear that they are not spiritual. They will not, you know, they are technically still a servant class. So also I just like to get into the.

Well here. Let’s go current and then I’ll go a little bit back before Israel. So currently I you the James. Thank you. You mentioned a couple hundred missiles fired here, a couple there.

They get one or two in, someone gets hurt by a side swipe or whatever. Not really a tragedy. Interesting, isn’t it? I had someone in fact argue with me the other day how, how nasty. It’s like, okay, Israel fired, from what I heard, unless I’m wrong, a thousand missiles.

Just the other week, one of them got through and what was that due to technology. So interesting rather, I mean, I’m not saying that if someone comes to your house and starts doing something police wise, I don’t know hardly any brother who’s going to reject those police from defending them, and I’ll mention that point, and also so you know, it happens. It’s amazing.

And here’s another thing too, history, you know, modern history. 50, what was it, 54, 67, 73.

Now and then we have the question of Panama, I mean, sorry, Gaza and Palestinian, and what’s going to happen? Is that going to suddenly wisp away or something in a severe. It’s kind of, I mean they may whisper, but are they going, is there, is there not a progression for that area and for mankind in general? And also one other thing, and now I forget but.

Well, I do appreciate all the comments that Brother Rick had in the different scriptures he brought up. It’s, and we know again it’s, it’s, there’s, there’s, there’s a trend in God’s nature. We. Oh yeah, brother.

I mean not God’s nature but the history and how he affects us, and we’re humans. God is God, but we, we’re human, and here’s the thing that for instance, the first Advent and second Advent. Okay, and what did by the way, what did Jesus say?

Jesus said about the punishment of the. What did he say about some of those people? That well that’s kind of diff, that is different than what I’m about to say but about some of those leaders that they’re going to be punished, and then what happened of course 70 or whatever you want to 73 AD which was about 70 or 40 years after him. Why did that happen?

That was one of the most terrible historical recorded acts of people having to eat their own children or they thought they had to eat their own children. So.

And here, here’s here, here. So here’s brother Drake while you’re catching your breath. Thank you. I’m sorry, we’ve now exceeded the, the convention time. Okay, I’m sorry.

Well, one little sentence. Jake, we can continue after the closing him I’m told. Okay, yes, so. So brethren, please don’t put your hands down. Keep the questions coming.

We just want to make sure that we wrap up so that those that have to go do not feel like they have to stay beyond. So what we’ll do is we’ll close with a hymn and a prayer and then we still have the room open for us to continue this great conversation. Okay. If that’s okay with the brethren. Okay.

And so let’s please keep your hands up. Don’t, don’t put it down. So we know at least what order and sequence you we have you on. But essentially what we’ll do do at this stage is we will close with a hymn and then ask but a Rick to dismiss all of us in prayer, and then after that we will then continue our conversation so it’s, it’s more free flowing and, and there’s no particular order to it.

Okay, can we please bring up the hymn?

I am waiting ever waiting for the brighter better day Just beyond the clouds and shadows that surround my lonely way For a day of light and Gladness such desert has never known when inequity and justice Christ shall reign on David’s throne All the cross so its brightness from afar and immerse sublime has spoken of the peace and glory There they have slept in those green valleys which in weariness they trust.

Soon they’ll come with songs of triumph to the Holy Mount of God.

Now the world is full of suffering, Sounds of woe fall on my sight of wretchedness and sorrow fill up my eyes with pitting tears.

Tis the earth dark and light of weeping wrong and evil triumph now I can wait for just before me these the moon be rosette gloom I am waiting, hoping pray for Messiah’s glorious reign For I know he’ll rule injustice right truth will triumph Then worldly pleasures cannot win me While I wait o’ er that bright day Worldly splendor can but charm me while its blight beams on my way.

Foreign Beloved Father in heaven, we praise you and thank you. We give you the glory and we are so appreciative that you’ve revealed yourself unto this to be a God of justice, love, wisdom and power, mercy and long suffering, a covenant keeper and a God of life, and we thank thee that you’ve given us a gift of Jesus, special gift, nearest and dearest to your heart. No words can express our appreciation for this gift of thy only begotten Son, and so we marvel before thee, Father, at your glory.

We marvel at the majesty of your Son, our Lord and Savior. Dear Jesus, we thank thee for this time to consider your plans and how they’re working throughout the ages. We what’s taking place today and what lies yet before us, and we do long for that kingdom of peace when all these questions will certainly be resolved and the blindness will be fully removed, and all those who are willing will have the opportunity to be in heart harmony with thee.

So we now thank you for the time spent asking your blessing to be with us. Even though the convention is over in our discussions, if you’re the spirit of Christ, abide we pray and seek this according to your will. In Jesus name, Amen.

Amen. Thank you bro. Rick. So just, just before we open the mics for everyone to be, you can turn on your cameras, you can unmute yourself. I want to say big thank you to Rick, Brother J, member Bill, you know, for their service, the Toronto class really, really appreciate it and also for the brethren that have taken the time, you know, to share this moment with us.

This was a hot button topic in our class and you guys gracefully helped us you know, understand this. Just want to say on behalf of the Toronto area Bible students, thank you all. We are going to leave this room open so conversations can still continue. Again, like I said, it was a hot topic, and so it’s, it’s, it’s expected that a lot of bread and would definitely have things to say.

But please, just, just, just one request is please be considerate. Let’s make our comments short so that others can have an opportunity to speak and, and learn from, from us. Okay. But thank you, Michael. Yeah.

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